Not every choice by a woman is a feminist choice and don't have to be celebrated as such. Atp we are gonna call those TPUSA girls saying they don't care about their voting rights also feminist.
i don’t think that’s what the author was trying to point out. unless i’m mistaken my main takeaway is that bc OF has become part of the attention economy, which requires a ratcheting up of spectacle to stay on top, the extremity of the content has followed. or in the simplest terms, Bonnie Blue is the Mr Beast of OF.
They are basically both circus performers. I think this goes back to (su)reality TV...humiliate/degrade yourself for chance at money & fake, a deal many people leading mundane lives can't resist.
This is the sharpest framing I’ve seen on this. “Choice” is too flimsy a word once a platform economy starts rewarding escalation, shock, and self-objectification at industrial scale. At some point it stops making sense to talk about empowerment as though the market is just neutrally reflecting desire instead of actively shaping what women feel forced to become legible through.
It sounds like this is somewhat of an anti-capitalistic take and for that, I see where you're coming from. However, this means that in order to adhere to this Marxist-type feminism, you'd need to condemn nearly every monetarily successful woman and in that case, yikes!
I fear you are confusing some things… critique of the market is not necessarily always based in a marxist position and marxist feminism doesn‘t condemn individuals for thriving in the societal conditions (capitalism) that they live in but is rather an analysis of the systems, the influence it has on women and the way women can emancipate themselves in it and from it…
Maybe we have a different definition. To my understanding Marxist feminists are simply those who believe the patriarchy is rooted in our capitalist system. I suppose they aren't inherently critical or adverse to capitalism but it's highly suggestive that they are. Circling back to the issue at hand here, we're discussing the issue of women's choice vs. the greater good. I don't believe we must always sacrifice individual freedoms to serve the greater good. I wouldn't say I'm quite a libertarian, but it's interesting how people are quick to dismiss women's liberty when it comes to societal wellbeing. No matter how controversial or unagreeable someone's use of free will is, it's still important to maintain.
i agree with everything but one thing. i think there is no simple marxist position as in my experience marxists fight each other tooth and nail about what marxism is, and there are bound to be some that think patriarchy is rooted or amplified by capitalism..
but you‘re absolutely right, no matter what choices someone makes it is still important to ensure their freedom. Personally, I think that there cannot be real societal wellbeing if it doesn‘t ensure the wellbeing and relative freedom (freedom as long as it doesn’t harm others) of every person therein
Okay, period. I can agree with you on that as well. I definitely recognize the harmful message that Bonnie Blue’s creampie challenges post to women but my point of my original post was to argue that as a feminist, I believe that as crazy as some people think her choices are, they’re hers to make.
Ya but no one forces you to join in on becoming a content creator nor forces you to maxx. Many content creators find success by doing their own thing. For example, IShowSpeed is doing wholesome travel vlogging and Maya has her animal sanctuary.
Thank you so much for your nuance. I feel like a lot of the pieces I've seen about her have been unintentionally regurgitating the same conservative rhetoric and calling her a slut, so it was refreshing to read about Bonnie Blue without being stopped and reminded of what a "bad person" she is.
Yes, sometimes the conservative reaction is gonna make sense to us but not the rhetoric. Its important to investigate our discomfort. Otherwise it is so easy to get swept off my reactionary rhetoric
Totally agree with this. I often think; if we took away the audience, would she still do all of this? If nobody cared or found out, would she choose to sleep with that many people in a day.
Comparing it to another form of audience, the theatre, I know many actors who would still stand on a stage and perform out of pure passion with nobody watching. Thats a choice.
I think for Bonnie Blue it was a choice at first, and maybe something she enjoyed, but now she’s doing it for views, money and shock factor. And some of (if not all of) the stuff she’s doing isn’t necessarily something she would choose to do otherwise
In a truly equal society, the idea that you can pay someone to access their body would be unthinkable. Because to do so, you need to believe your pleasure is of greater value than their autonomy. This is why the vast majority of consumers of sex work and porn are men, not because they have a greater "need" or "desire" for it.
For this reason, too, I can never get behind the idea that sex work in any capacity is empowering. If it was true power, the boys at Eton would be the ones pressured to do it, not young (and often poor) women.
An equal society means no transfer of goods and no transactions. Why do I need anything from anyone if we have equal needs, values, inventory. Like repelling magnets.
Wow you really nailed it, I also consider myself extremely liberal and yet struggle with the current only fans narrative. Your final question is spot on, Bonny Blue didn’t decide to do the ticketed golden shower, it was the natural next step for the journey she’s on.
I think that in order for this to be true, then you also need to believe that every stunt person/chris angel mindfreak/extreme event person/Mr Beast contestant is also being coerced. Sex work is just work. It can be dangerous work. That danger, though comes from a lack of labour protections and the hammer of the state and all that. Then if you believe that, you also have to believe that ALL WORK is coercive under capitalism, which i would somewhat agree with. Sex work is not feminist because NO work can be feminist. Either everyone's work is coercive or nobody's is.
I agree, the optics are icky. I also do not love that men get to get off to a pregnant person being urinated on. It's gross how she's marketing it. I do not like that the chase for metrics in online sex work just is hunting for the most shocking and degrading shit to do to women.
But it is in fact, unfortunately, an autonomous decision
even autonomous decisions are influenced by the world a person lives it and what it values, rewards or sanctions. all our choices are i some way socially determined
Don't all industries revolve around sexualisation, especially that of women? I'm no longer surprised to see the concept of feminism warped to the point of grouping Blue with other figures under the guise of 'liberal feminist'. I was having trouble defining the recent chaos surrounding her claims and upcoming shows, so Thankyou for putting it into words and also for giving clarity about the 'sex is violence' claim :)
This is silly. No one is coercing anyone who chases views or OF subscriptions (rewarded via algorithms or male horniness) to chase views or OF subscriptions. The vast supermajority of people manage to sustain themselves with jobs that don't involve pregnant gangbangs
The left loves to expand concepts because it can't defend the natural outcomes of their values. Liberalism and its derivatives like feminism have no inherent limiting principles against the deconstruction of social norms outside of direct harm from one individual to another, so you either have to accept that this sort of behaviour is either fine or engage in Olympics quality mental gymnastics like this thinkpiece
1. point: coercion: i think it‘s not so much about the forces that make somebody do something (as you said, nobody forced her to do it) but about understanding the trends and motivations at work in her choices
2. i think this is different in the US but I wouldn‘t describe liberalism as leftism. Liberalism has more of a laissez-faire attitude that shrugs its shoulders (free reign of the market and so on) while leftism aims at the construction of societal norms that lead to equality and liberate everyone, including from systems of oppression that they might have been not previously conscious of (e.g. toxic masculinity depriving certain men from real human connection)
3. i wouldn‘t describe feminism as a derivative of liberalism. it has a history separate from liberalism and can take different forms. the only reason that it coincides with liberalism is because most of the people leading the debate live in liberal political systems. liberalism might even pose a danger to feminism (e.g. consumer feminism, where it‘s more about presenting yourself as an emancipated individual women, which might limit collective action for womens‘ equality)
4. liberalism is about accepting. leftism is about making people conscious of the way their own choices (even if they are necessary) might be harming themselves
Your first paragraph is a case in point. Namely you interpret the use of the word "coercion" as "about understanding trends and motivations at work in her choices" rather than the definition sane people use, ie compelling someone to do something by threat of harm. Yea yea "words are violence" and all that to you leftists
I meant liberalism in the philosophical sense, not as an American partisan slur. Liberalism is a philosophical tradition aimed at freeing individuals from constraints. To classical liberals, it's freedom from coercion of the state - libertarians don't mean the "free market" as an actual thing that reigns, as you put it; it refers to freedom from the state exercising its coercive power to interfere with mutually consensual exchange. To Marxists, it's freedom from capitalism. To feminists, it's freedom from patriarchy and gender roles. You're just splitting hairs and denying what's commonly known when you say that feminism is some unique intellectual tradition separate from liberalism
The more delusional sects of the left tell themselves that people who explicitly oppose their glorious utopia need to be liberated from being manipulated by the superstructure of society. In your case, it's restated as "making people conscious of the way their own choices (even if they are necessary) might be harming themselves" or "consumer feminism". It's all just derived from liberalism and all fail people in the same way: liberalism and its children see constraints on human behaviour (eg, norms, gender roles, etc) as obstacles to human emancipation, when many are in fact generally necessary for human thriving
It seems that you are very passionate about this, could you give me some sources according to which Marxists and feminists are necessarily libertarians? i would like to try and understand your point of view
I didn't say they're libertarians. I said they're all derivatives of liberalism, namely human emancipation as the primary project and that the difference is in what they believe we must most be emancipated from
>To classical liberals, it's freedom from coercion of the state
>To Marxists, it's freedom from capitalism
>To feminists, it's freedom from patriarchy and gender roles.
For libertarians in particular, it would be a freedom from constraints against exchange between consenting individuals
Because I fear without understanding which theoretical field you are coming from, our opinions are too different that what either of us is saying is comprehensible to each other
White liberal feminists are generally problematic in that they uphold the patriarchy in very subtle ways. The sexual "revolution" was marketed as liberation to women but it's not, not really. It's based on the male gaze, male pleasure, and giving access to men for menm it's serves men, not women. That doesn't mean one should be puritanical, not at all, but it's one thing to be able to enjoy sex without the burden of pregnancy to whatever this* is. That poor baby.
People are comfortable celebrating female agency until female agency starts producing outcomes that look suspiciously like male fantasy.
Not every choice by a woman is a feminist choice and don't have to be celebrated as such. Atp we are gonna call those TPUSA girls saying they don't care about their voting rights also feminist.
I think having a look at his profile tells you what you need to know.
yes but i regret it
i don’t think that’s what the author was trying to point out. unless i’m mistaken my main takeaway is that bc OF has become part of the attention economy, which requires a ratcheting up of spectacle to stay on top, the extremity of the content has followed. or in the simplest terms, Bonnie Blue is the Mr Beast of OF.
Yes, that is the main takeaway. But I also don't think OF or pornography is empowering. And also that every woman's choice is a feminist choice.
This is too reaallll
I've been struggling to articulate my thoughts about these women... You have done a superb job of it. Thank you!
That was my point while writing this issue. I know a lot of us weren't able to really pin point what we were feeling.
Bonnie Blue being closer to Mr Beast than a traditional sex worker is the framing that finally made this click for me
They are basically both circus performers. I think this goes back to (su)reality TV...humiliate/degrade yourself for chance at money & fake, a deal many people leading mundane lives can't resist.
yes, this!
Mr. Beast does not revolve around sex tho, so they are not the same at all.
She was referring to views.
This is the sharpest framing I’ve seen on this. “Choice” is too flimsy a word once a platform economy starts rewarding escalation, shock, and self-objectification at industrial scale. At some point it stops making sense to talk about empowerment as though the market is just neutrally reflecting desire instead of actively shaping what women feel forced to become legible through.
It sounds like this is somewhat of an anti-capitalistic take and for that, I see where you're coming from. However, this means that in order to adhere to this Marxist-type feminism, you'd need to condemn nearly every monetarily successful woman and in that case, yikes!
I fear you are confusing some things… critique of the market is not necessarily always based in a marxist position and marxist feminism doesn‘t condemn individuals for thriving in the societal conditions (capitalism) that they live in but is rather an analysis of the systems, the influence it has on women and the way women can emancipate themselves in it and from it…
Maybe we have a different definition. To my understanding Marxist feminists are simply those who believe the patriarchy is rooted in our capitalist system. I suppose they aren't inherently critical or adverse to capitalism but it's highly suggestive that they are. Circling back to the issue at hand here, we're discussing the issue of women's choice vs. the greater good. I don't believe we must always sacrifice individual freedoms to serve the greater good. I wouldn't say I'm quite a libertarian, but it's interesting how people are quick to dismiss women's liberty when it comes to societal wellbeing. No matter how controversial or unagreeable someone's use of free will is, it's still important to maintain.
i agree with everything but one thing. i think there is no simple marxist position as in my experience marxists fight each other tooth and nail about what marxism is, and there are bound to be some that think patriarchy is rooted or amplified by capitalism..
but you‘re absolutely right, no matter what choices someone makes it is still important to ensure their freedom. Personally, I think that there cannot be real societal wellbeing if it doesn‘t ensure the wellbeing and relative freedom (freedom as long as it doesn’t harm others) of every person therein
Okay, period. I can agree with you on that as well. I definitely recognize the harmful message that Bonnie Blue’s creampie challenges post to women but my point of my original post was to argue that as a feminist, I believe that as crazy as some people think her choices are, they’re hers to make.
and that’s called choice feminism
Ya but no one forces you to join in on becoming a content creator nor forces you to maxx. Many content creators find success by doing their own thing. For example, IShowSpeed is doing wholesome travel vlogging and Maya has her animal sanctuary.
“Algorithmic coercion”. That's a phrase that sums up so much.
Thank you so much for your nuance. I feel like a lot of the pieces I've seen about her have been unintentionally regurgitating the same conservative rhetoric and calling her a slut, so it was refreshing to read about Bonnie Blue without being stopped and reminded of what a "bad person" she is.
Yes, sometimes the conservative reaction is gonna make sense to us but not the rhetoric. Its important to investigate our discomfort. Otherwise it is so easy to get swept off my reactionary rhetoric
Totally agree with this. I often think; if we took away the audience, would she still do all of this? If nobody cared or found out, would she choose to sleep with that many people in a day.
Comparing it to another form of audience, the theatre, I know many actors who would still stand on a stage and perform out of pure passion with nobody watching. Thats a choice.
I think for Bonnie Blue it was a choice at first, and maybe something she enjoyed, but now she’s doing it for views, money and shock factor. And some of (if not all of) the stuff she’s doing isn’t necessarily something she would choose to do otherwise
That poor baby!
Absolutely agree, not every choice a woman makes can be a "feminist choice" because of things like internalised misogyny
In a truly equal society, the idea that you can pay someone to access their body would be unthinkable. Because to do so, you need to believe your pleasure is of greater value than their autonomy. This is why the vast majority of consumers of sex work and porn are men, not because they have a greater "need" or "desire" for it.
For this reason, too, I can never get behind the idea that sex work in any capacity is empowering. If it was true power, the boys at Eton would be the ones pressured to do it, not young (and often poor) women.
An equal society means no transfer of goods and no transactions. Why do I need anything from anyone if we have equal needs, values, inventory. Like repelling magnets.
Wow you really nailed it, I also consider myself extremely liberal and yet struggle with the current only fans narrative. Your final question is spot on, Bonny Blue didn’t decide to do the ticketed golden shower, it was the natural next step for the journey she’s on.
I think that in order for this to be true, then you also need to believe that every stunt person/chris angel mindfreak/extreme event person/Mr Beast contestant is also being coerced. Sex work is just work. It can be dangerous work. That danger, though comes from a lack of labour protections and the hammer of the state and all that. Then if you believe that, you also have to believe that ALL WORK is coercive under capitalism, which i would somewhat agree with. Sex work is not feminist because NO work can be feminist. Either everyone's work is coercive or nobody's is.
I agree, the optics are icky. I also do not love that men get to get off to a pregnant person being urinated on. It's gross how she's marketing it. I do not like that the chase for metrics in online sex work just is hunting for the most shocking and degrading shit to do to women.
But it is in fact, unfortunately, an autonomous decision
even autonomous decisions are influenced by the world a person lives it and what it values, rewards or sanctions. all our choices are i some way socially determined
“Porn does not inform, or persuade, or debate. Porn trains.” -Amia Srinivasan
Absolutely correct
Don't all industries revolve around sexualisation, especially that of women? I'm no longer surprised to see the concept of feminism warped to the point of grouping Blue with other figures under the guise of 'liberal feminist'. I was having trouble defining the recent chaos surrounding her claims and upcoming shows, so Thankyou for putting it into words and also for giving clarity about the 'sex is violence' claim :)
This is silly. No one is coercing anyone who chases views or OF subscriptions (rewarded via algorithms or male horniness) to chase views or OF subscriptions. The vast supermajority of people manage to sustain themselves with jobs that don't involve pregnant gangbangs
The left loves to expand concepts because it can't defend the natural outcomes of their values. Liberalism and its derivatives like feminism have no inherent limiting principles against the deconstruction of social norms outside of direct harm from one individual to another, so you either have to accept that this sort of behaviour is either fine or engage in Olympics quality mental gymnastics like this thinkpiece
1. point: coercion: i think it‘s not so much about the forces that make somebody do something (as you said, nobody forced her to do it) but about understanding the trends and motivations at work in her choices
2. i think this is different in the US but I wouldn‘t describe liberalism as leftism. Liberalism has more of a laissez-faire attitude that shrugs its shoulders (free reign of the market and so on) while leftism aims at the construction of societal norms that lead to equality and liberate everyone, including from systems of oppression that they might have been not previously conscious of (e.g. toxic masculinity depriving certain men from real human connection)
3. i wouldn‘t describe feminism as a derivative of liberalism. it has a history separate from liberalism and can take different forms. the only reason that it coincides with liberalism is because most of the people leading the debate live in liberal political systems. liberalism might even pose a danger to feminism (e.g. consumer feminism, where it‘s more about presenting yourself as an emancipated individual women, which might limit collective action for womens‘ equality)
4. liberalism is about accepting. leftism is about making people conscious of the way their own choices (even if they are necessary) might be harming themselves
Your first paragraph is a case in point. Namely you interpret the use of the word "coercion" as "about understanding trends and motivations at work in her choices" rather than the definition sane people use, ie compelling someone to do something by threat of harm. Yea yea "words are violence" and all that to you leftists
I meant liberalism in the philosophical sense, not as an American partisan slur. Liberalism is a philosophical tradition aimed at freeing individuals from constraints. To classical liberals, it's freedom from coercion of the state - libertarians don't mean the "free market" as an actual thing that reigns, as you put it; it refers to freedom from the state exercising its coercive power to interfere with mutually consensual exchange. To Marxists, it's freedom from capitalism. To feminists, it's freedom from patriarchy and gender roles. You're just splitting hairs and denying what's commonly known when you say that feminism is some unique intellectual tradition separate from liberalism
The more delusional sects of the left tell themselves that people who explicitly oppose their glorious utopia need to be liberated from being manipulated by the superstructure of society. In your case, it's restated as "making people conscious of the way their own choices (even if they are necessary) might be harming themselves" or "consumer feminism". It's all just derived from liberalism and all fail people in the same way: liberalism and its children see constraints on human behaviour (eg, norms, gender roles, etc) as obstacles to human emancipation, when many are in fact generally necessary for human thriving
It seems that you are very passionate about this, could you give me some sources according to which Marxists and feminists are necessarily libertarians? i would like to try and understand your point of view
I didn't say they're libertarians. I said they're all derivatives of liberalism, namely human emancipation as the primary project and that the difference is in what they believe we must most be emancipated from
>To classical liberals, it's freedom from coercion of the state
>To Marxists, it's freedom from capitalism
>To feminists, it's freedom from patriarchy and gender roles.
For libertarians in particular, it would be a freedom from constraints against exchange between consenting individuals
Because I fear without understanding which theoretical field you are coming from, our opinions are too different that what either of us is saying is comprehensible to each other
White liberal feminists are generally problematic in that they uphold the patriarchy in very subtle ways. The sexual "revolution" was marketed as liberation to women but it's not, not really. It's based on the male gaze, male pleasure, and giving access to men for menm it's serves men, not women. That doesn't mean one should be puritanical, not at all, but it's one thing to be able to enjoy sex without the burden of pregnancy to whatever this* is. That poor baby.